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Where your work meets your life. Run into more than from Ascend here.

Most of what I know about lawyers comes from watching reruns of Police force & Order. Then yeah, I know very little. What I practice know is that lawyers are resilient, they work incredibly hard, and they're really good at reading enormous stacks of paper.

But over the last yr, I've been eager to larn more nigh what it takes to be a lawyer. Organizations like the ACLU, and the people who piece of work for them, have been in the headlines more than than ever as they go along to fight for gratis speech, LGBTQ+ rights, and constabulary accountability. I'm passionate virtually these causes. I can attend protests and sign petitions all day long, simply in the finish, information technology is the attorneys working in public interest law that volition assist turn the changes I want to run into into realities.

To learn more about what it'southward like to exercise that work, I spoke with Jessica Lewis, a Staff Attorney for the American Ceremonious Liberties Marriage of Massachusetts. Jessica shared with me the details about her career — from interning at the White Firm, to attending Harvard Constabulary School, to working at the Southern Poverty Law Heart, to condign an chaser at the ACLU. We likewise talked near the pay discrepancy between "big law" and public involvement law, the pros and cons of post-obit your passion, and what it really takes to modify the globe.

I want to start off by request you a question almost something I saw on your LinkedIn, where you refer to yourself equally a "Social Justice Warrior." What does that mean to you?

It means I needed something to put on my cover letter. No, I'm kidding.

In the shop, nosotros spend a lot of time really working to fight other people's battles, and actually making that our priority. That'due south one way to think about it. I recollect the best example of that is, I did a clinic with a legal services organization. I did work with survivors of domestic abuse. And we received a call from i of our clients proverb that she wasn't able to send her children to school considering she was sick and that her ex-husband wasn't paying child support. She didn't accept any coin to send them to schoolhouse on her own.

So I stepped in and called the ex-husband simply to remind him of the child support payments. And then he told me, "This is none of your concern." I was able to reply, "This is literally my job, this is all that I do. And so yes, this is my business. I'm stepping in here."

I think that's the thing well-nigh being a social justice warrior. You're really in there, and you're actually fighting for people and what they need.

Tell me a lilliputian flake more well-nigh your job. What does the day-to-twenty-four hour period look like for you?

I'm going to give you the cliché answer: At that place is no day-to-day. I think it depends on the case. Sometimes I take clients that require face-to-face meetings. We're coming together with people to advocate for them or their needs, meeting with college-ups, etc.

Most of the time, I'm only sitting at my desk doing research on legal issues, writing briefs, and talking on the phone with people. I'thousand doing that more and more than considering of the pandemic.

And sometimes, very rarely, I'grand actually in courtroom. Either nosotros submitted a cursory in a case and we're just observing the court hearing to run across how it goes, or we're there to speak with the lawyer who's arguing it, or nosotros're arguing it ourselves. Although, I accept yet to actually argue a case on my ain.

That'south the solar day-to-day: Wake up, check emails, and so whatever the needs of the case are, that dictates what y'all're going to be doing.

Is in that location a specific area that you piece of work in at the ACLU?

I am a junior lawyer. I've been at the ACLU for two years. I graduated law school in 2017, so when I came into the arrangement, I had about a year and a half of lawyering nether my belt. The way that they structured my position was that I was going to do more than to become my easily on each kind of subject surface area.

Some of our lawyers practise mainly police accountability, or Get-go Amendment, or immigration. My cases are kind of sprinkled across all of them. Correct at present, a hot-button upshot is that there are a lot of ordinances or codes restricting what people can put on their lawns. There may be like a "no Black Lives Thing" rule or no "Trump sign" rule. We've been working a lot on getting rid of those types of ordinances.

Were you always interested in pursuing this particular career path? Did you e'er know y'all wanted to get an attorney or work at the ACLU?

No, only when I knew that I wanted to get an attorney, I knew that I wanted to piece of work at the ACLU. Information technology was role of my x-year plan, so information technology happened a lot sooner than I anticipated.

When I was younger I wanted to be a scientist. I didn't want to exist an astronaut, but I did desire to be an astronomer, an aeronautical engineer, or a chemic engineer. Information technology kind of changed every yr. My parents really supported each hobby that I vicious into. But it was e'er closely aligned with the sciences.

Around the time that I got into calculus and entered Georgia public schools, my teachers were less supportive of me. And information technology tended to fall along racial lines — the things that they said were pretty horrible. So I started thinking to myself, I really desire to fix that, and I desire to enter the education field so I can make sure that other students and people don't experience the aforementioned setbacks that I did in terms of people disparaging or otherwise discouraging their dreams.

That'south when I shifted to wanting to be a lawyer. But I still think to myself that I'1000 going to plow 40 or something and I'yard going to shift into a new career path. Maybe I'll go dorsum to beingness a scientist.

Tin yous tell us a little bit near what the process of applying and getting into law school is like?

Yeah. You lot basically suck upwards your soul and you lot hand it to admissions officers.

Evidently your undergraduate grades are pretty important. And then you spend a lot of time studying for the LSAT, which is important. The first fourth dimension I ever took the LSAT, I didn't study for it. I got, similar, a 159, which was pretty bad. But the second time, I studied and got a good score.

Once the LSAT is out of the way, you also accept to give your personal statements. And almost schools as well let you to submit a diversity statement. I didn't want to exercise one. But I actually talked to an admissions officeholder and one of the things that they told me was that I can choose non to send a diversity statement, simply it might look weird. And so I also did that.

Then some schools have different things that you need to write too. Like, some schools require y'all to write an additional essay. That's why I didn't utilize to Yale. I got very lazy toward the end of applying. And and so you have your recommendations and things like that.

There are online communities that I used a lot that helped me with this process in terms of setting up a report schedule for myself, knowing what's normal in terms of the timing for admissions and notifications for credence letters. Information technology was nerve wracking considering some people volition start getting their credence letters then yous're constantly refreshing your inbox, similar, "Why am I not getting one?" Getting input from other people really helped with the process.

My thought of law schoolhouse is it's the hardest matter y'all could maybe do. Is that what information technology'southward actually like?

Some people like police force school. I judge those people.

Before I went to police force school, I wanted to set up myself for the worst possible experience so that no affair what happened, it would be ameliorate than that. Which I think was a proficient strategy. But law school wasn't bad.

Yous don't have whatever exams or annihilation like that until the very end. So the commencement couple of months, you're just really learning and studying. It's hard in the kickoff because you're basically learning to speak a new linguistic communication. You're reading cases that use words that you can't even pronounce.

Yous're getting like 100 pages of reading per night, per course. It's slow going at first. You certainly become better equally you learn how to retrieve and acquire similar a lawyer. When you get to the final exam menstruum — information technology'south admittedly stressful and terrifying. That period of law school every semester was hell.

And yes, yous have cold calls. It's not at all like "How to Get Abroad with Murder." You lot don't stand up and requite your answer. Yous can sit and be terrified in your chair. I sucked at cold calling. People would call on me and I knew the answer, and the moment that they called on me, I just didn't anymore.

So how did you lot terminate up at the ACLU? What were the steps you took to become in that location?

Public involvement law operates a little flake differently than private police force. At least at Harvard and most other schools. Right after your outset year, individual police firms come to campus and do one-hour interviews with students. That's how yous become your summertime internships, then those turn into chore offers.

For public interest folks, that work doesn't actually beginning until later your second year of law schoolhouse. Harvard is pretty supportive in terms of helping people notice fellowships and jobs. Only at most police schools, you're kind of your ain for public involvement, and there's not actually a fix system in place correct at present to help people find fellowships.

So all summer, you lot're calling people at organizations that you're interested in trying to get breezy interviews at. You're trying to get to the adjacent person that's going to assistance you go sponsorships for a fellowship. You tin utilise for the EJW or Skadden fellowships and those will pay for one or two years of your piece of work at a not-turn a profit doing a civic project that yous cull to work on.

Or some organizations have their ain fellowships and they pay for you to be a beau there. I'm talking about fellowships considering the about traditional route to public interest work is to do a one- or two-yr fellowship or clerkship, or both. And then you can transition into being a full-time staff person.

I was a young man at Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery doing work in their LGBT Rights and Special Litigation Group. After that, I transitioned to existence a full-time staff attorney at ACLU.

So if I desire to become an attorney, what would y'all say are the major skills or the mindset I should have going into this career path?

It'south important to only develop an involvement in the field. Public interest is hard work depending on what interests you accept. Like if you're a criminal defense force attorney, you're working with people whose life is in your easily.

It'southward hard to carve up yourself from your clients sometimes. Similar, when I did the domestic violence clinic, it was hard considering these women were experiencing awful things. They were experiencing great hardships in their life, and you're merely there for a small portion of it. And as a lawyer, you only take the skills to help address some of their issues. Y'all can't set up information technology all, and you lot can't take it all on. And that'southward something that I had to learn — how to footstep back.

ACLU doesn't practice a lot of direct services piece of work. We're able to focus our involvement more than on protecting a person's rights, equally opposed to being involved in their life. It'south easier to take a step back. This piece of work can actually take an emotional price, especially if you're a very empathetic person.

So before you decide to follow this career path, you really practice demand to have an involvement in doing this blazon of work. Y'all should also exist able to pinpoint what it is that yous're interested in. That will assist you notice the organization or field that'due south going to really match with your interest, your civic goals, and your worldview.

For example, at SPLC, nosotros were more than interested in doing work confronting hate groups and limiting hate speech online. The ACLU plainly takes a very different approach — it'southward more of a purist organization where we want to protect the rights of all people to speak no matter the content, because we think that it's important for the government not to be the ones who draw that line in terms of what is adequate or not acceptable. Yous have some other organizations like LDF, which does more racial justice work.

So I think knowing who you are as a person earlier you lot enter this piece of work is important. As is being able to grow along the fashion. When I was in law school, I did non want to do criminal justice work. I did a dispensary with the United States attorney's office. I did not want to be a prosecutor after that dispensary because I did not want to exist responsible for putting someone in prison. I did not want to be a criminal defense lawyer because I did not want to be responsible for keeping people out of prison house.

Now that I'm at ACLU, I practise a lot of criminal justice piece of work. But information technology'south a footling easier because we kind of merely helicopter into a case and then nosotros kind of just footstep back out of it. Information technology's not as high stakes as information technology is if yous're but enmeshed in the criminal justice system.

What are some of the misconceptions nearly this career path?

One of the biggest misconceptions almost being a lawyer is that nosotros know everything virtually the police. I accept people request all the time about criminal defence piece of work, and I don't know annihilation. Every lawyer is super specialized. I have a friend who does mergers and acquisitions, only only in the international market. I accept a friend who does contracts, but but for IPOs. Especially with court cases coming out all the time, the law is constantly irresolute and shifting. And so you have to really stay on top of your particular field so that you can have a full general baseline knowledge.

For public interest law, one of the big misconceptions, and probably something that gets a lot of young lawyers in trouble, is the thought that you're going to alter the world through your work. Some people do. There are dandy examples all throughout history of people really making a difference.

But I recall information technology's rare. And I think a lot of people go very discouraged when they enter this field and they have these big lofty ideas and it doesn't actually happen. And that disconnect can pb to alcohol corruption, low, and the like. A lot of my jobs take focused on either incremental changes or just holding the line depending on who'due south in charge.

What are some pros and cons of pursuing your passion versus going somewhere where you'll brand more money?

That'south a very personal choice, and sometimes it does simply come down to a thing of resources. I know a lot of people who choose to go into civic law in society to pay off their loans, or they take family unit obligations or things like that. And they may spend three to five years in civic police and so transition to being a public interest lawyer. That's one common route.

I just dove correct into public involvement. I did a summertime with a big law firm, and I loved it. There were a lot of perks. They took us out to five star restaurants all the time or nosotros went to the Hamptons and hung out. It was fabulous.

But I could non wake up every twenty-four hour period knowing that my goal was just to make other people money. It just wasn't my thing. I was happiest there when I did a rotation through the pro bono side. I just loved existence able to help other people and know that I was waking upward every day with a purpose — to make other people'southward lives meliorate.

When you started working in public interest law, did you call up you were going to modify the world? Was that something you had to larn the hard way?

I didn't actually go into all of this thinking that I'm going to be the person that changes the world. I did have a very detached goal about what ramble alter that I wanted to touch or cause. Merely it was a very small thing, and I thought it would take like xx years. So I was kind of realistic nearly that.

That said, during my fellowship, I did realize that I idea of the globe differently than what information technology was. I entered into the civil rights arena thinking that I was going to be insulated from racism and sexism in the workplace, and it was a very hard and harsh reality to feel it. That did crusade depression for me.

And then I didn't necessarily think that I was going to change the world, but I did recollect that because I was going to exist fighting for people's rights that I would be in a workplace around people who would fight for mine equally well. Or be able to expect at themselves and know maxim the Northward-word is not OK, or know that sexual assault is not OK. But that was non necessarily true.

At present, luckily, I am in a very supportive environment.

What were those ramble changes that you were interested in? What were your goals?

I wanted to make an impact in instruction police force. Basically, the way that we teach history in middle school and high school is very Eurocentric, and we only really ever larn virtually other cultures through the lens of how white Americans hurt them. And so Black people are only mentioned for slavery or existence hosed downwards, but non our affect on culture or the shaping of America.

When our history is taught, it'south very fragmented. You don't actually see that continuous narrative of how nosotros got from one identify to where nosotros are today. And for a lot of people, that causes them to say, "What are they still complaining about? Slavery happened a long time ago." Because information technology's just taught very poorly.

We but don't get a very authentic picture of what America is in this country, and that's largely because of how nosotros're taught history. We're just taught America's white. I've e'er wanted to change that and make a ramble argument that that is racial bigotry and harmful to a person's identity. I'one thousand not working on that correct now. 1 twenty-four hours I will. It's in my 10-year plan now. Lofty goals.

What are some of the obstacles and challenges of this industry? What are the things that you wish you could change about this industry?

An obstacle for public interest police force is it'south really hard to go a position considering the funding is not ever there. Getting your pes in the door is likewise a challenge, and you accept to become through the fellowship process. That's why internships are important, so that you can meet the right people and have a good rapport amid your colleagues. Particularly in Boston. Information technology'southward a small place. The civil rights community is very modest. Then people practice know yous past your reputation.

Something that I'd like to change is — the legal system is very antiquated in terms of the function of women. I recollect I had one internship where they encouraged women to wear skirts, and by encouraged I pretty much mean it was a requirement. Nosotros were told if we want to express our individuality, we can wear a squeamish brooch. I also had a colleague who had a guess that kept pointing out that she wasn't smiling.

And you can't say anything considering you're advocating for someone else. You tin't cull not to wear a skirt considering some jurors accept expressed bias against women wearing pants. Or there was i case where a judge stopped proceedings and had the attorney go change. It's all very messed upward.

Like, I sometimes habiliment pinkish when I'm in court hearings, considering I was one time told that I'm aroused. And so I thought if I looked very feminine, no one is going to think I'm angry.

Changing grade a bit here, but what should I look to go paid if I'chiliad going into this career path?

It varies by field. As a young man, my starting salary was $60,000. Which was, I think, very generous. The ACLU in Massachusetts recently unionized, so our floor for incoming staff attorneys is $lxx,000.

But on the other side of this is big police. The starting salary for first-year attorneys is $190,000. I would never make that in my current career path. But my friend also, his starting bacon was $225,000, and then literally twice the amount of money I can ever expect to make in my electric current career path.

But in my career path, Harvard helps pay off my loans. I merely have to make a certain contribution depending on my income. I recollect correct now I have to pay $600 every month, and Harvard pays the other $3,000. That varies depending on what law school you go to.

But my friends in large law are completely responsible for the totality of their loans.

You've mentioned "big constabulary" a couple of times. What does that hateful?

In that location are a couple of firms that are dubbed big law. They're more often than not New York firms, or Chicago. They're your big law firms. Like 500 plus employees in their station, in major cities, very big starting salaries.

Their clients are like big Fortune 500 companies and they do a range of services for them, whether it be intellectual property, litigation, contract work, mergers and acquisitions, IPOs. It depends on the house and what they specialize in, but it'due south going to exist some area that caters to or serves the interests of these big companies.

Tin can you talk a niggling bit more nigh loan repayment? Do nigh police force schools offering assistance for public interest lawyers?

Harvard and possibly Yale have pretty generous loan repayment programs. Harvard'south is simply income-based. Equally long as you are making a certain amount of money, Harvard will pay dorsum your loans. And the amount of coin that you lot pay each month depends on your level of income. They do set a cap. So if I ever make about $130,000, I will accept to pay the full amount of my loans. Just I'm never going to make that, so whatever.

They do it over a x-year period. And in almost law schools, you have to be doing a certain public interest job in order to qualify for the loan repayment program. You have to do it for all 10 years, which means that at any time during those 10 years you switch to another field, you have basically nulled the commencement couple of years that you were receiving loan repayments and you're now obligated to pay those back.

What is the work-life rest of your task? How many hours are you spending "in the part?"

We have a pretty good balance. My workload is very case-dependent, and so the week before filing, we put in longer hours. I have a project right now that'south kind of a passion projection. It's more focused on racial justice and community organizing, which is not really function of my job every bit a staff attorney. Then I spent some weekends doing that.

We besides take a lot of holiday days. I spend a lot of fourth dimension traveling — every year I go somewhere new. And then it'due south a pretty skillful balance, specially compared to some of my friends who did big law for their first couple of years. Similar once, I was visiting a friend and I simply call back I would become to sleep at 1:00 or ii:00 in the morning, and she'd be at her desk typing. And I'd wake upwardly at 6:00 or 7:00, and she'd exist at her desk typing. I couldn't practice that. I need to step away and keep a walk or just arctic for a 24-hour interval.

They really do encourage work-life balance, especially at the ACLU. I but call back there was a period where people were working too late and so we all got an electronic mail reminding the states that nosotros're expected and encouraged to leave at v:00 to spend time with our family unit or go out to dinner. There were a host of suggestions of things that you can do exterior of work. So it was an expectation that you worked from 9:xxx to 5:thirty. And there was word that if people aren't finishing their work during that fourth dimension, then do we need to readjust our staff and our expectations? What tin nosotros practise as an organization to make certain that you are able to strike the balance.

What do you honey nearly the piece of work that yous do today?

I love the cases that we get to piece of work on. Even if it'due south not a instance our part worked on, I get to be like — we just litigated gay wedlock and won. That's something I love. The work nosotros do and being able to transport it out to my friends like, "Hey, I'm working on this case. It'southward a really cool constitutional issue that's going to touch people."

Has in that location been a particular case that really did bear upon you personally?

Non necessarily impacted me personally. But our function litigated the drug cases that dealt with the fallout of Sonja Farak and Annie Dookhan's misconduct in the Massachusetts state drug labs. They tested drug samples, but their results were non reliable for diverse reasons, and that ways that a lot of criminal cases were tainted. Y'all couldn't tell whether or not the evidence that was presented against them at trial was really verifiable or that they actually did possess drugs.

And then the legal director, the ACLU of Massachusetts, and several other organizations really litigated the fact that all these cases needed to be overturned and tossed out equally wrongful convictions. To the extent that we're aware, it was the largest number of cases being overturned in history.

Being office of the solution to this terrible thing that happened has been really great.

Over the last year, I've definitely seen the ACLU in the news more than e'er. Has that impacted the work that y'all've been doing?

I started at the ACLU in 2019, so a year into my tenure here the pandemic happened and then we had the summertime protests. I practice think it really helps doing this piece of work if there is public force per unit area, public support behind the goals that we're trying to achieve. And to some extent, our work is really informed by that move. Recently, the ACLU got behind the defund motion. Obviously, that's something that came out of the protests and really the demands that were happening, and that has as well informed our work as well. That goal is our work around racial profiling and things similar that.

Have you ever had to piece of work on a instance where yous didn't personally concur with what you were fighting for?

I do fall on the First Subpoena purist line, then I support people's right to say any they want. I'm very agape of the government having the ability to determine what is and is not hate speech or what is and is not allowed. I retrieve if we allow or advocate for the government to exist the one to enter that field, in terms of censoring our speech, information technology'due south unsafe. Giving anyone that power to determine what we can and cannot say or how we express ourselves is dangerous. Obviously, that has its limits in terms of what we saw with the presidential ballot. That was awful. And I don't know how to fix that. I don't know if the gear up is to limit people's oral communication. But I'm pretty sure I would never defend someone's correct to say the N-word.

I oasis't been put in a position where I have had to choose my own values versus the piece of work. Y'all can exist asked to work on something that y'all don't necessarily believe in. Simply the law is flexible plenty to where you can brand an argument near why this detail case is dissimilar. There is room to breathe and flexibility of law if y'all're asked to work on something that you but don't really agree with. You can brand the legal statement for why this tin be different. Or yous tin can just push button back on your employer and say that you don't want to piece of work on information technology.

Okay, last question: Who is your career crush?

I don't aspire to be president, merely I'k going to say Obama. Information technology's powerful to exist able to inspire a country. I merely recall being able to create your own movement and be a very positive modify or a beacon of hope for a lot of people — being able to establish yourself and really accept that kind of support and momentum backside you lot to make that real change in the globe, I call back that's very powerful.